Talk:Death of Adolf Hitler

Charlier's 2018 paper was not kept secret and was co-written by four additional researchers

Please don't cover up that it was published in May 2018 by the European Journal of Internal Medicine. I will not use this source again, as I discovered a better detailed version of the European Journal of Internal Medicine was already in the article, but this is an example of what I want to be known.[1] Sometimes, research papers are kept secret for a period of time, which is why I want it to be known that it was published by May 2018. It was also co-written by four others, which should be noted too.Speakfor23 (talk) 01:00, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Not characterized as "secret" and the authors are appropriately cited. All co-authors do not need to be mentioned at every instance. UpdateNerd (talk) 01:46, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Clarity

Is there even a consensus on what actually happened to Hitler's body? I can't seem to find clarity on this article. I did research and Britannica seems to rest on the claim his body was secretly buried before being exhumed and cremated, with the ashes scattered in 1970.[2] Some science articles claim a French team confirmed his body was kept by Russia and studied it in 2018.[3] Chatgpt was useless as it just supports both Britannica and the aforementioned science articles despite they contradicts each other. And this Wikipedia article is a real headache in trying to understand what happened as it contradicts itself multiple times. 49.181.31.71 (talk) 07:37, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

It seems ultimately it's a matter of dispute and debate. If that's the case, then it should be written clearer and not be such a mess as the article currently is. My impression is that it stresses the Russians lied as it has a subchapter for Soviet disinfo, but what is the truth then? What happened to Hitler's body? Someone should really try to streamline that Aftermath chapter to make it easier for readers and not get them so confused by the repetitive contradictions found in its current state.49.181.31.71 (talk) 07:43, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

Never found except the dental remains. The bodies were supposedly burnt by Hitler's staff, but scientific studies debunk the presumption that bones would burn to ashes. It seems instead that the Germans commited forensic fraud, more certainly in the case of Braun—who was never fitted for the bridge found with "her" remains. Additionally, the Soviets falsified an autopsy report for disinformation purposes, supposedly cremating the remains they examined in 1970 (along with the Goebbels family) or in some other year. Hitler's dental remains, broken and burnt around the tooth sockets, are archived and thoroughly confirmed to be his, even without DNA tests. UpdateNerd (talk) 12:19, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

It is clearly stated in the lead and article that he died by gun shot in his Berlin bunker in 1945. It is not "a matter of dispute and debate", nor a "mess". For example:

In the lead: "... committed suicide via a gunshot to the head on 30 April 1945 in the Führerbunker in Berlin. Cited to MI5 Security services on their official government website. And linked and cited supporting quotes are included in lead. For example, " ... blood dripped from a bullet hole in his right temple ..." See Kershaw 2008, p. 955.

Then in the body: "Eyewitnesses who saw Hitler's body immediately after his suicide testified (in court) that he died from a self-inflicted gunshot ..." Cited to Fischer, Kershaw, Joachimsthaler. Later in the article there are additional WP:RS cites, as well. What is correct is that only the dental remains found were and have been firmly been identified as real and correct. Philippe Charlier (French coroner, forensic pathologist and paleopathologist) reconfirmed the dental remains are that of Hitler and in "perfect agreement" with X-rays taken of Hitler in 1944. See Brisard & Parshina pp. 224, 273–274.

Opinions of editor's do not count, that is WP:OR, original research and we do not include fringe theories. Here we go by what the established main-line authorities on the subject state and what the evidence shows. The Soviets mis-handling of the investigation, along with Soviet disinformation/propaganda thereafter created issues and problems over the years. The old Soviet book ("The Death of Adolf Hitler") has been largely debunked (including, the alleged autopsy report) and the author himself years later admitted that his work included "deliberate lies", such as the manner of Hitler's death. See Eberle & Uhl p. 288. Historian Richard J. Evans states in his book, "The Hitler Conspiracies", "... the Soviet obfuscation continued with the short book... by Lev Bezymenski...it was full of inaccuracies"... See pp. 168-169. As editor Beyond My Ken stated here on the talk page in the past, "... no one -- except perhaps some Russians accept the Russian 'documentation'. It's been thoroughly debunked and respected mainline scholars do not accept it."

Another problem that creates some confusion is the books and TV shows as to Hitler's "escape"; it is all nonsense in the end but sells and gives cable channels ratings. See the article, Conspiracy theories about Adolf Hitler's death. As the lead states, "While the claims have received some exposure in popular culture, they are regarded by historians and scientific experts as disproven fringe theories. Eyewitnesses and Hitler's dental remains demonstrate that he died in his Berlin bunker in 1945." Kierzek (talk) 20:07, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

Good enough for a GA. That means the article is... finished and... we should keep preserving it in its existing state. That is, disregarding disclosures published later than the sources currently cited, which otherwise cannot be superseded. UpdateNerd (talk) 03:06, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 February 2025

The walther pp that hitler used to commit suicide is not chambered in 7.62mm as written, rather in 22 long rifle or other in the same size

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_PP#PPK 82.112.90.81 (talk) 11:33, 10 February 2025 (UTC)

The source says "Fischer (2008) p. 47, '...Günsche stated he entered the study to inspect the bodies, and observed Hitler ...sat...sunken over, with blood dripping out of his right temple. He had shot himself with his own pistol, a PPK 7.65.'"Diannaa (talk) 14:03, 10 February 2025 (UTC)

James O’Donnell refuting Instant Cyanide death

The section containing reference to James O’Donnell’s refutation of Bezymenski’s claim of instant death from cyanide should be amended. O’Donnell is confusing liquid prussic acid in an ampoule with a solid cyanide salt, which takes more time to cause death. All mentions of the cyanide refer to glass ampoules, implying liquid HCN (prussic acid, aka “zyklon B”). In contact with a human’s body temperature in the mouth this liquid would boil and act as a gas in high concentration. An ampoule’s worth would deliver a far greater amount of gas than the trace amounts that victims were murdered with in the gas chambers in two minutes. I believe O’Donnell is making a chemistry mistake and so not thinking about the speed of loss of bodily control.

Johns Hopkins’ Center for Health Security says that a lethal dose of cyanide gas (HCN, the gaseous form of prussic acid) will kill in seconds. They note that it is fast-acting and highly lethal, which makes sense as even trace amounts around 100 mg/m3 gas concentration are lethal within 10 minutes.

https://centerforhealthsecurity.org/sites/default/files/2023-02/cyanide.pdf

The International Cyanide Management Institute says that 2380 mg/m3 hydrogen cyanide will kill a human in one minute.

https://web.archive.org/web/20121130094124/http://www.cyanidecode.org/cyanide_environmental.php

2380 mg of liquid HCN should occupy roughly 3 mL, or roughly 6 droplets of liquid. I would imagine that these ampoules would contain at least 6 drops in order to guarantee that some residue could be left in the ampoule. Let’s say that of the 6 drops that boil in the mouth, an eighth of that isn’t directly absorbed into soft tissues and fills the 0.006 cubic meter volume of an adult male’s lungs. The example of an eighth of the drops is just a hypothetical ratio. An eighth of 2380 mg is 297.5 mg filling the 0.006 m3 space at a concentration of 49,583 mg/m3 = 20.8 times the concentration of HCN gas exposure that will kill you in one minute. The disbursal of the gas will be rapid due to the low relative density of HCN gas.

On page 322 of The Bunker, James O’Donnell derides Soviet Forensic Scientist Professor Mikhailovitch Smolyaninov for assessing instant death from the cyanide in the ampoule. O’Donnell says that few poisons are instant, and CERTAINLY NOT cyanide because he is thinking of the lethal effects through the human body’s absorption of a cyanide salt, not HCN gas. No one has described the ingestion of a solid rather than a liquid from an ampoule (which would become gas in the mouth).

So, it appears certain that O’Donnell has unreasonably cast doubt on Bezymenski’s account here due to his trust of the entirely reasonable inference of Smolyaninov. O’Donnell impugns Bezymenski and Smolyaninov because he misidentifies the poison used because he neglects the common description of the ampoules in the witness descriptions. This would also be consistent with the witness description of the instant death of the dog, which was found shot. Perhaps the killing of the dog, was a rehearsal of the full procedure, with coup de grace. It would also not be surprising that prussic acid was used, as Zyklon B was just a branding name they gave HCN gas.

Someone with editing privileges should add a note about the implausibility of O’Donnell’s objection. As it is, the use of O’Donnell’s quote will mislead readers who do not notice O’Donnell’s obvious error because of a lack of familiarity which compound containing the element cyanide was likely used. Or, if there is doubt that the ampoule contained a liquid, and instead contained a solid salt, it should be made clear that the description of the dog’s death must be fabricated, and the poison chosen was selected instead of a quicker acting solution. 23.93.90.239 (talk) 21:57, 5 April 2025 (UTC)